What a guy told me today - pro teams

[scozim]

For the past couple of years I've always crossed in opposite directions the same rider during my training rides. Today I happened to be riding in the same direction and caught up to the guy.

Of course, he had to revel in his 2011 Trek carbon frame (it was nice) and I don't think it really clicked that I had caught him fairly easily on a 34 yo steel bike. Oh well.

I had to chuckle, though, when we were talking about old steel bikes and he says Lemond and Fignon didn't win on Gitane's. The teams used other bikes and then just painted them the colors they wanted. He says "most people don't know the 7-11 team rode Huffy's".

I dropped it - wasn't worth arguing with the guy. Most people in the know understand 7-11 rode Huffy's. I don't think the team tried to say they were something else.

But the Gitane comment - ????????? I mean seriously - as a team I'm going to sign with a major cycling company and then use a bike manufactured by someone else but paint it to look like it came from the sponsor.

I think I'll go back to riding the opposite direction of this guy.

[Wisey]

I have a huffy........



.......but maybe it's a gitane that's been painted over

[Gtane]

Scott,

Cyfac, France, made many pro bikes but we're unlikely to know how many and it's not beyond the realms of possibility that they did make machines branded Gitane for all or some of the top riders.

Indeed, there's a photo of Fignon on a Delta on the Cyfac history page showing examples of their work - http://tinyurl.com/4pvhsgv On the same page they list Systeme U as a team they supplied frames to.

Many pro machines were not as they appeared, but many were. Knowing which is which is a very difficult task indeed.

Wisey,

That's a beautiful machine.

Tim

[Wisey]

Yep. Like that Huffy which was actually built by Mike Melton who also built bikes ridden by the USA National team badged as Huffy, Raleigh and GT among others. We'll never know many of them, but that just adds to the mystique. I personally don't give a fig that last years Tour winner rode a stock standard Trek, or was it a Specialized..... actually, who won the Tour last year?

FYI: The Huffy TT bike was built for a rider with the initials RK.
Roy Knickman or Ron Kiefel.

[Gtane]

Wisey,

That's a very special ride and all that additional detail makes for a unique machine.

With the new UCI design restriction rules the only differences will effectively be colour and graphics, with everyone riding stock frames.

Regards last year's Tour, a bike definitely won.

Tim

[sandranian]

The 7-11 bikes were badged as huffy, made by Serotta.

The Gitane bikes ridden by the team were made at Gitane's factory in Machecoul. Period.

The Gitane bicycle ridden by Greg Lemond to the 1983 World Championships was made in Machecoul with STOCK materials, but likely specially made by the best workers. I know because I (1) asked and (2) examined the bike.

I take exception to anyone who says that Renault/Elf or Systeme U were riding anything other than Gitane produced machines. Of course, the TT bikes may have been built by special builders (for example, the TT bike ridden by Fignon in 1989 was not a Gitane, although badged a Raleigh, it was available the in 1988 as a Gitane [probably could have written that more clearly]).

[Gtane]

There's an article on PezCycling News all about Cyfac's philosophy and an interview with their Product Manager where he mentions frames going to the entire Gitane Team. He talks about them being ultra light and flexible, and being built of Reynolds tubing.

http://tinyurl.com/4ffow5y

Tim

[sandranian]

If you read the article, it mentions that the Renault team rode on "Francis Quillon" built frames. He was the founder of Cyfac. But it doesn't say, nor will Cyfac admit, that he worked for Gitane.

But don't take my word for it:
*******
Gitane bikes were always factory made or handcrafted outside the factory, then painted?

In fact, from what I?ve seen, they were handcrafted?in the factory. The best workers were assigned to the professional bikes.

So there was a special treatment for these?

Yes, this is a bit like a luxurious car. Depending on the rider, the frame had to be shorter here, longer there?it had to be top notch. And the material that was used was not available for retail. We?ve had Reynolds 753, 531?3/10, 5/10?not many people could use that.

We are intrigued by a particular bike that you used in 1983 for the spring classics. Instead of being blue, it was chrome coloured with a little badger on the front. You won the Fleche Wallonne with this bike. Do you remember it?

Not at all (laughs)?No?anyway, that was a Gitane. It could have been a prototype?

[Excerpts from an interview with Bernard Hinault: http://www.gitaneusa.com/Hinault.asp]
***********
I dare you to argue with him about it.

[Gtane]

Stephan,

Sure, I agree with those points and it's great to have the info. from the interview.

Cyfac began in 1982 so it could well have been that the founder worked either on his own or that his skills were employed solely or party by Gitane. Either way the company was officially formed at that time when he was building. So sponsorship arrangements were no doubt of prime importance.

The Cyfac site has further information, this timeline details wins on Gitane branded machines that were officially known to be Cyfac made and shows that Systeme U were supplied - http://tinyurl.com/6xe4tkf The interesting thing about this document is that there's a gap from 1982 to 1987 where no teams or riders are declared. But that might be as much as we'll know.

Tim

[sandranian]

Certainly Bernard Hinault's knowledge of what was going on within the Gitane teams would have ended in 1983. But I take what he says as gospel.

I don't believe that Cyfac made the frames in 1987/1988. If you notice, they are all over the place with their claims: One thing on their website, another in interviews. It is entirely possible that the founder and lead framebuilder was contracted by Gitane to make some Gitane bicycles...but at that point, are they "Gitane" or are they "Cyfac"? Is it possible to have any bike actually built by a corporation: a legal fiction?

I believe that they made them in 1989, and could have made select TT bikes in 1988 for the team (i.e. the losing TT bike in the 1989 tour de france appeared in a Gitane special insert).

[Gtane]

Stephan,

I agree with you regards clarity but it's also interesting to see what has been declared. Most interesting.

The same is true of cars - same chassis different bodywork and name, but it's still a such and such underneath. Indeed, some cars were identical but for the badge on the front.

You might be pleased to hear that I've currently run out of links!

Tim

[Wisey]

I dare you to argue with him about it.[/b]

[verktyg]

I dare you to argue with him about it.

[Wisey]

There have always been these 'deals' done behind closed doors. It still happens, but not with frames any more. Lance Armstrong used Zipp disc wheels re-badged as Bontragers until he switched to "Lightweight" discs re-badged as Bontrager. Big deal. As Sandman noted, the 7-Eleven team rode on Serotta's. They were sponsored by Murray in 86, built by Serotta. Then in 87-88 they were sponsored by Huffy, again built by Serotta, with a few exceptions. Hampsten had a bike build by John Slawta (Landshark) and Bob Roll had a re-badged De Rosa. As I mentioned earlier, the TT bikes were built by Mike Melton.

Most of the info we have discovered does indicate that Gitane did do the team bikes in house. They certainly had the resources to do so.

[scozim]

There have always been these 'deals' done behind closed doors. It still happens, but not with frames any more. Lance Armstrong used Zipp disc wheels re-badged as Bontragers until he switched to "Lightweight" discs re-badged as Bontrager. Big deal. As Sandman noted, the 7-Eleven team rode on Serotta's. They were sponsored by Murray in 86, built by Serotta. Then in 87-88 they were sponsored by Huffy, again built by Serotta, with a few exceptions. Hampsten had a bike build by John Slawta (Landshark) and Bob Roll had a re-badged De Rosa. As I mentioned earlier, the TT bikes were built by Mike Melton.

Most of the info we have discovered does indicate that Gitane did do the team bikes in house. They certainly had the resources to do so.

I tend to agree with you Wisey. To me the component rebadging doesn't really matter - Simplex or Gipiemme, Zipp or Bontrager, etc.

From the frame perspective I tend to lean toward the belief that Gitane, and probably Peugeot, produced their own bikes. Heck, in one of the Cyfac links above the interview talks about Vitus frames - heck Vitus material was used by a variety of different manufacturers and themselves for their own Vitus bikes..

Even if Cyfac made some bikes for Gitane in the mid to late-80's and later, the question would be did they use their own material or did Gitane provide it and rely on the Cyfac personnel to manufacture the bikes.

I had re-read Hinault's interview here before posting this and it seems pretty clear that the team was riding Gitane built bikes while he was on the team and even up to 1983 as Stephan pointed out with Lemond's bike.

Fun to at least have the discussion.